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November 14, 2005
HINT 1 FOR CHALLENGE 6
The structure of the cipher text is not at all accidental. Of course it is morse, and the transcription machine hasn't changed all that much so it should it be easy to guess how to get characters out. All the characters count. Count them. Harry.
Posted by Harry at November 14, 2005 04:38 PM
Comments
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I completed part B yesterday but I still don't know what part B means! It's not as complicated as everyone made out.
Posted by: Jane at November 17, 2005 06:42 PM
Harry, is there any way I can find out how I'm doing so far? I know what position I am for each cipher but how do I know what position I am overall?
Thanx
[Leader board 0 gives the overall championship rankings based on performance in part B. Harry]
Posted by: Maya at November 16, 2005 07:54 PM
Is LATIN 5 to with the related ancient culture's numeric system? If so does this stand for a code type?
Posted by: anon at November 16, 2005 07:43 PM
Why won't you say how the leadership board is organised in bands? Is it random? Or is it a dark and deadly secret?
[Because I'm not sure and anyway I think it adds an air of mystery to the whole thing! Harry]
Posted by: sophie at November 16, 2005 07:41 PM
Sorry this is a bit off topic, but how is the leadership board ordered within points bands?
[We don't say. Harry]
Posted by: Clever Code Cracker at November 16, 2005 07:07 PM
Do we have to work out the keyword to do the challenge?
[Not really. Harry]
Posted by: Jenny at November 16, 2005 06:20 PM
Do the number of asterisks in the blocked words/ hints represent the actual number of letters in those words e.g. ***** = a five letter word
[Fraid not. Harry]
Posted by: lara at November 16, 2005 06:13 PM
My stress level is going up....
Posted by: charmaine at November 16, 2005 05:48 PM
For people who are stuck with what latin 5 means, try thinking outside the box. Think about cryptic clues. At first I wondered whether LATIN FIVE was an acronym.
[when of course it is really an **** whoops, not 8pm yet! Harry]
Posted by: anon at November 16, 2005 05:18 PM
okay, i know people hate these sorts of messages, but i really feel stumped. with ICT and Biology coursework piling on, i do not have that much time. please give just a little hint, i've tried everything. please harry, it's almost a week.
[After 8pm this evening! Harry]
Posted by: laura at November 16, 2005 04:42 PM
Harry, if members in a team have changed over the course of the challenge, is it possible to change the team details anywhere? I remember you could last year but can't find where to this year.
Thanks.
[Yes you can. Try the form at http://www.cipher.maths.soton.ac.uk/cipherreg/regedit.phtml. Harry
Posted by: Anne Onymous at November 16, 2005 04:28 PM
whoa i actually got the first two words!!! lol fialka is not the encoding method but it is used in the encoding, keep working guys!! (&Gals)
Posted by: martyn compton at November 16, 2005 09:27 AM
getting stuck on this "interesting twist" grr
Posted by: cecil at November 16, 2005 07:58 AM
Thanks Harry for putting in those asterisks YAY! i think i'm on the right path FINALLY!... (i hope!)
Posted by: Vicky Simons at November 16, 2005 07:32 AM
Jenny,
If the frequency of the letters is quite flat then this can often mean that more than one alphabet has been used.
Question then becomes how many alphabets?
Clues are in part 6A!
Posted by: cipherbloke at November 15, 2005 10:46 PM
I don't get it, the letters frequency is just too strange....
Posted by: Jenny at November 15, 2005 10:11 PM
im so happy, i finally dun it!!!!!!
its possible, but just remember the previous 2 challenges (part b's) is a similar trick but u must think not outside, but inside the box!!!
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 15, 2005 09:31 PM
Changing morse into letters I found it was easier to replace the 4 dots and dashes first then those with three in them and then two and finally one dot/0 and one dash/1. I didn't change them into dots and dashes I left them as 1 and 0.
Posted by: richard at November 15, 2005 09:20 PM
/----/ means ch, or at least that was what I found.
Posted by: richard at November 15, 2005 09:15 PM
I think i have got a link. Everyone is talking about looking lateraly. This is the same as doing a huge caeser box. Is this along the right lines and that this solves the clue in part A. If so, where do i go on from there?
Hugh
Posted by: Hugh Bird at November 15, 2005 09:12 PM
Try eastern morse for /----/, also, what common cipher is a type of latin square.
[I don't know, what common type of cipher is a latin square? Harry]
Posted by: Rob at November 15, 2005 08:43 PM
PS Wow.
It's not one of those annoying******************* before a ********** IS IT???? (I know that if this comment isn't let through then it is... MWA HA HA HA HA) hmm
[Pesky asterisks. Harry]
Posted by: Vicky Simons at November 15, 2005 08:23 PM
If you use these simple steps you should be able to translate from morse and get the right number of characters, by using word.
1)Get rid of carriage returns:
Go to find, replace, click in the 'find what' box, then click on special, paragraph mark. then delete whatever's in the 'replace with' box. then click replace all
2)Get rid of any spaces
Repeat 1, except change the 'find what' box to be a space.
3)Replace all 0's and 1's with . and -, respectively (or vice versa if Harry changes it again)
4)replace all morse words with the appropriate character, remembering to search for /../ i.e. include the delimeters to prevent decrypting part of a single morse letter.
5)remove all the delimeters.
Why not record a macro when you do this and next time it will be a lot easier.
[This is the right idea, but I would be wary of deleting the spaces if I were you. Harry]
Posted by: Mike at November 15, 2005 08:16 PM
ch i think, special character
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 15, 2005 07:51 PM
mmm.. What does /----/mean in morse code?
Posted by: Jenny at November 15, 2005 06:40 PM
the 1 i use is quite good,but h8s special chars etc
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 15, 2005 06:38 PM
Morse code translators aren't always reliable. Make sure that you don't have a line break in the middle of a morse character, as the online translator that I used treated a line break as a slash. Hence too many letters. Also don't forget that most translators won't recognise /----/ so remove them before you start and input them manually.
Posted by: Margaret at November 15, 2005 06:35 PM
Jelly- most of the morse code translators you can find online fall apart at the slightest thing, and so don't like the Cipher Challenge texts. It might be quicker to either do it manually (or using Word or Excel), or if you're that way inclined write your own translator program.
Posted by: Jess at November 15, 2005 06:20 PM
Just want to ask... Are morse code translators usually reliable? I got 6B in morse code, but i couldn't get 1024 characters. The translator gave me more! I realli want to decipher it but i haven't even got the cipher text right.. Help
Posted by: Jelly at November 15, 2005 05:59 PM
got to ask...
how old is "old"?
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 15, 2005 05:41 PM
Never give up.
Think 32; think twist; think old european cipher (not ancient). In that order. Got it yet?
Posted by: Jason at November 15, 2005 05:33 PM
the challenge could be double encrypted. it needs to be put in the correct letter order, before you try breaking it.
Posted by: chidders at November 15, 2005 05:24 PM
ok i am close to giving up on this.
I have a square grid of letters 32 by 32.
is this correct? what do I do now?
i have had a bash at two square ciphers, four square ciphers, tried vigenere ciphers. I am not sure I know what this european cipher is.
This is very frustrating, because the last ciphers were fun to break, but this one I cannot even get started....nothing to get my teeth into. what kind on code am i dealing with?
all the above i have tried should at least also need a key word, which could take forever! Obviously it hasn't taken some of you forever,what am I missing?
is it polyalphabetic?
is it homophones?
why is the square important?
is 32 being 2^5 and 6a mentioning latin 5 a coinidence?
Posted by: Jason at November 15, 2005 05:05 PM
Wow wow wow and WOW! I won a prize. Like WOW! Very happy me. wots it gonna be?
[As usual, £25 for the team. Harry]
Posted by: Vicky Simons at November 15, 2005 05:04 PM
How unfair. The other challengers are trying to help fellow competitors, in the spirit of the challenge, its no skin off their nose as they have already submitted and gained the highest points. Bletchley residents co-operated. However the organisers keeping stopping the hints. WHY? who's going to gain from this us or them. I know I am not going to win but I do enjoy taking part. I got the 2=/ on the first day and converted the morse code but since then!!! Yes 1024 is 32*32, or 2^10, so what? I have read ^a so many times I know it off by heart. It does not help me and going by the number of comments it's not helping alot to others. So it looks like another one has fallen by the wayside.
[Look, this is a two week challenge. If we let the hints through it will become a ten minute challenge and rob you of the chance to do it yourself. We will be letting more hints through as time goes by, but you have ages yet. Harry]
Posted by: richard at November 15, 2005 04:49 PM
Ok, ive been thinking and does the latin and early european clue in part A point to it being a Ceaser shift, just with a twist. Or is it a Ceaser square. Please help and tell me if i am going down the right road. Thanks
Posted by: Hugh Bird at November 15, 2005 04:31 PM
Another hint:
Just in case your wondering there is no rule saying you can't mix ciphers.
Also, don't think linearly.
Hope that helps,
Julian Bhardwaj
Posted by: Julian Bhardwaj at November 15, 2005 04:11 PM
People are vastly overemphasising the "importance" of 32x32 or powers of 2, or 32 squared. It really isn't that important at all, in fact it put be off quite a bit. The structure is important, not the number of letters
[I'm not sure I entirely agree with this, though there is some truth in it. Harry]
Posted by: frankhamand at November 15, 2005 04:00 PM
Hello all - I just thought I might add to the hints scene here. These may not get through, but hey :).
a. Read 6A. Read it again. And again. 1024 is 32 squared - that's very important. Read 6A again. It'll click. Everything you need to know is in 6A.
b. "old European cipher" - now what could that be? But it doesn't work? Read 6A again.
This is more of a lateral thinking puzzle, and unfortunately that was just another clue, so I'd better stop before I give away that *************
[Whoops, that pesky asterisk keeps jumping in there. Harry]
Posted by: Katriel Cohn-Gordon at November 15, 2005 01:43 PM
To the person who got 1046 characters:
Take out the line breaks of the original numbers before you translate the morse code. You should end up with 1024 after that.
Beyond that, I'm amazingly stuck.
Posted by: DJack at November 15, 2005 10:22 AM
My only suggestion to everyone stuck with this cipher is to go back and look at the last line of 6a very hard and think about what you could to with 32*32 with what this last sentence tells you. Then after that you get some nice little patterns appearing, 11 cough.. cough..
Some of the hints in this probably wont get through but hey at least i tried. Also if they do get through dont take them too literaly. Keep going and stuff guys etc... etc...
Posted by: Chris [13375/\/4><0|25] at November 15, 2005 09:04 AM
Yay something I can help with! If you're translating from morse in Word then I would recommend a really wide page and a font where the characters are all of equal width like Lucida Consolse. If you seperate each morse character with tabs, you should notice that some lines have only 31 letters in. If you have been doing previous challenges, and reading comments on the site, you should be able to work out whether 0 = . or -
Got to this stage ages ago, have a very good, long crib, but no idea how to convert the ciphertext into the plaintext. I've tried quite a few ciphers but have had no flashes of inspiration. I don't think it can be a straight **************** cipher given a freq analysis so am rather stuck. ************* doesn't seem to work either. : (
Posted by: cecil at November 15, 2005 07:38 AM
Latin Five -> Faint Evil
Posted by: Mr. Anagram at November 15, 2005 12:01 AM
I've finally got the right amout of letters, but they all seem to have reasonably simalar frequencies, i cant work out how to do anything with the 1024 letters iv got. any suggestions as to what to do now would be much appreciated
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 14, 2005 11:30 PM
Thanks for that, Danny. It's alright for some ¦|
Is it a t**-****** cipher?
Posted by: I'm Lost at November 14, 2005 11:02 PM
I'm so close - its frustrating! - Its all in the alphabet from morse (did that days ago) - i've finally got the correct amount of characters, and have recognised that 32x32 = 1024 - this, from the posts has some importance - must be. And I'm pretty sure its poly alphabetic. I just need to decipher it some how for this stage. I've split it up into 32 blocks of 32 letters. Is it a polyalphabetic cipher? is it simply of finding the number of alphabets? or have I missed something?
Posted by: Stephen Harris at November 14, 2005 10:50 PM
Thought I should also offer some good words of advice for those people contemplating Cipher 6B - related suicide.
Sit back, relax for an hour or two. Have a drink, watch tv, listen to some relaxing music. Then think about the cipher in a happy state of mind, away from the glare of a PC screen, still with the music on. It might help a lot!
(Just in case people are becoming paranoid, there are no hidden clues in here)
Posted by: Danny White at November 14, 2005 10:33 PM
Hugh Bird - I was the one who first mentioned Digital Fortress. There is quite a simple cipher in there (and yes it does appear at the end) that is used partway through this cipher, and ties in with 1024 being 32 squared.
Posted by: Danny White at November 14, 2005 10:25 PM
can u tel me what 22 means?
[Slash Slash? Harry]
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 14, 2005 09:43 PM
any1 KNOW?
otherwise, hanx freaks for the help
i tried both, but get too any characters in both i realise now
a defo answer would helptho, half the work i got to do
plz tell me if u kno FOR SURE thanx
[Just to settle this once and for all, the 2 is a slash. Harry]
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 14, 2005 09:37 PM
i thought that 1 was - and 0 was . but i may be wrong
Posted by: freaks at November 14, 2005 09:19 PM
o gr8
can sum1 plz tell me, is 2 the slash, 1 the dot and 0 the dash, or am i completly wrong, cos i spent the last 3 hours on that idea
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 14, 2005 09:12 PM
is this in english, iv got loads of special characters like a, o and u with those 2 dots above
[Maybe you made a mistake? Harry]
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 14, 2005 09:03 PM
In the posts a few days ago, people were mentioning that Digital Fortress had some implecations. Is it the code at the end or what. Please, i am really stuck at the moment and should robably be on suicide watch
Posted by: Hugh Bird at November 14, 2005 08:59 PM
Think about the square. Square is good.
As for trying everything, bear in mind:
1) that it's Challenge 6B, so will be moderately hard, but not impossible without a program
2) that Part A has a BIG BIG BIG clue in it (at the end)
Posted by: Ian at November 14, 2005 08:54 PM
If you are completely stuck, try looking at the spacing between the '2's in the morse code, particularly the double '2's, you might find they occur quite regularly.
Posted by: Jonathan at November 14, 2005 08:54 PM
i have DONE IT! after 5 days of staring at a screen... ive just completed what i started trying to do 3 days ago! and i SOLVED IT!!!! what is a roman/latin five after all...
Posted by: charlie at November 14, 2005 08:44 PM
Small Hint:
The Fialka Machine does have some meaning
Julian Bhardwaj
Posted by: Julian Bhardwaj at November 14, 2005 08:16 PM
The significant thing about 1024 is that it IS 1024 squared!
[Huh? Harry]
Posted by: Bryn at November 14, 2005 08:08 PM
help me please!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have seached 4 ages and still can't find what ---- is in morse code! What has latin five got to do with anything??????? i tried a matrix with latin as a keyword bt that didn't work so what? help me pppplllllleaaaaaaaaasssssseeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: bexx at November 14, 2005 07:53 PM
ummm....
iv got 1046 characters...
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at November 14, 2005 07:43 PM
I'm such an idiot!!
I have no idea what to do. Some people have advised "trying everything" but that would be impossible without several thousand years and a massive supercomputer.
ARGH
[They mean try the different sort of ciphers it could be - what have you tried? Harry]
Posted by: Dissipation at November 14, 2005 06:31 PM
When are the prizes for Chall. 5 coming out??
[When I get a break from answering/moderating emails, comments and questions about Challenge 6! Harry]
Posted by: Cara at November 14, 2005 05:33 PM
HEEEEEEEEEELP MEEEEEEEEE. i'm never going to get this. all i'm doing apart from school since challenge 6 came out is cipher challenge, cipher challenge, cipher challenge. and i'm not getting anywhere. WHAT IS IMPORTANT ABOUT 1024 APART FROM IT BEING 2 TO THE POWER OF 10 AND 32 SQUARED??? okay if no one will tell me that, will someone please just take pity on me and explain if 0 represents . like last time, 0000 is .... which is h, then what is 1111, as ---- does not exist in the alphabet.
[Don't forget there is an extended version of the Morse alphabet. Harry]
Posted by: lara at November 14, 2005 05:24 PM