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January 16, 2006

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We can't make any promises to implement your suggestions but here is your chance to brainstorm ideas for improvement, comment on this year's challenge or just sound off. Try not to be too savage about our failings though or we might be too depressed to post them! Harry

Posted by Harry at January 16, 2006 02:19 PM

Comments

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First of all Harry I would like to say well done for organising the challenge. I think it has been interesting, challenging and the website has been much better than last year.

However, I think that the last challenge may have been a bit too challenging. Even though I could program I found that it was very hard. I have no idea what you could have done to break it by hand, other than wait for the settings to be released (about 26 hours before the deadline). Don’t be put down if you didn’t break the last one; even if you could program it wasn’t easy at all.

One thing I would like to see is some breakdown of the ages of the people we are competing against. If people found that they finished higher than people several years older then they’d probably be rather pleased! I think that this sort of data would be needed before any decision is taken on whether to split the challenge into junior and senior. If the entire top 10 are over 16 then it’s probably a good idea but if there is an even mix then maybe not.

So well done everyone and good luck for next year!

[Thanks for that, it was a little tough in the last round this year, but on the other hand it meant that the winner took more than the 26 minutes in took last year to crack it! As for publishing ages I'm afraid we might run into data protection issues. We will continue to think hard about the level of the last challenge. Hope you can take part next year. Harry]

Posted by: Bryn at January 21, 2006 09:24 PM

For both the high-placing primary schools there's an obvious 'sibling' secondary school team. This can't be just coincidence.

Regarding the Hill Cipher, there's nothing inherently 'A level' about matrices. Matrix multiplication is just arithmetic: once you've learnt the rules it's straightforward, and within the ability of a bright primary-school child. So is solving equations, even simultaneous ones.

Should any adult help be permitted? The teachers' pack clearly implies an expectation that some cryptanalysis will be taught. And the sponsors must be delighted when solvers realise that abstract mathematical concepts like modulo arithmetic, or indeed matrix multiplication, can have fun applications. So teaching maths concepts must be allowed, too. What about 'how to record a Word macro'? Surely yes -- and what self-respecting teacher would stand by and watch pupils struggle to record one, when some well-directed hints would prove far more effective than trying yet again to find the right bit of Microsoft Help?

It's a fine line. (But the challenges were great, even if 8B was very hard.)

[Of course it is no coincidence and in both cases the teams were frank about the position. Since no prizes are involved I hope everyone is content. As you say there is a fine line, but on the whole we are happy that it people manage not to cross it. Harry]

Posted by: Blitzen at January 19, 2006 11:24 PM

can next years cipher be a lot easier please thanks Freaks

Posted by: Freaks at January 19, 2006 09:48 PM

Hi Harry

Great challange even though we did not get passed cipher 6 it was very interesting. We did not have any help from teachers as the rules stated under 18's only so our teacher followed that. Thinking about help given, that would explain how a team from a primary school did so well. Perhaps next year we will be able to get our teacher to assist us. Thanks to everyone who gave assistance on the comments pages, it was very much appreciated, even if we were still stuck.
Look forward to the next challange.

{Be careful with getting help, we check before awarding prizes, and you might disqualify yourself from one of the bigger awards without meaning to. Harry]

Posted by: Richard at January 19, 2006 01:53 PM

Harry,

The Cipher Challenge was great.

I wondered if a CD would be available (at what cost) with the whole website on it?

We didn't do the challenge last year but having got into it, we'd like to go back and see the old challenges - but alot of the links no longer work.

Other points...

Are there written guidelines for how much help teachers can give pupils?

I think it is inevitable that people with programming skills will have an advantage over those with none (although we were very impressed with the Excel Fialka cracker - but I guess that was a form of programming as well). Anyone who seriously wants to compete for the title next year has plenty of time to learn Perl, Python etc.
Our team member who knew Python really came into his own on 8B and taught us what we needed to know in order to help him get the programme to work.

Perhaps the A and the B challenges could be used as different "Leagues Tables" i.e. you could register to compete in one or the other. Those who register for the B Ciphers (harder) could still do the A challenges but not win priizes on them. Those that only register for the A challenges
would know that they were not trying to compete with programmers and that their challenges would all be doable without with pen and paper. I think thst vast majority of people would prefer to enter the league that who best challenge them (and not register for the easier challenge just to win a prize - thus not seeing the harder challenges).
This could also be done on age ranges i.e. secondary pupils could not register for the Primary School Challenges.

Finally, another idea with more work for you...how about three sets of challenges...

Primary, Secondary and Sixth Form.
You could not register for a challenge below your school level but you could opt to register for a set of challenges above your school level.

Thanks it....thanks you and hopefully we'll see you at Bletchley PArk (or at the Sounthampton gathering).

Eleven-One aka Tom Waters and Ryan Norris

Posted by: eleven1 at January 19, 2006 12:06 AM

Please don't bring out the challenge on Friday night/Saturday or I won't be able to compete at all next year.
Thanks,Ben

[We do have this in mind. Another good reason to avoid the weekend is that we want to encourage schools to tackle the Challenge as an after school club, which would be tricky on Saturday for most schools! Harry]

Posted by: Ben at January 18, 2006 11:16 PM

This challenge was really good fun and i really enjoyed it. I have to agree with the fact that it could come out on a different day. friday or saturday maybe, so that we've got the weekend to work on it. apart from that, i really loved it, but although everyone told me practically everything there was to know about 8b (apart from what the plaintext said) i wasn't even close to an answer at midnight on the last day. so please please please could you make it easier? i'd really love to be able to have a chance of cracking it.

Posted by: lara at January 18, 2006 03:51 PM

Harry,

I would agree this has been the best challenge to date and I like the website. The time-band scoring is a good idea and it gives you time to enjoy solving the challenge, but perhaps the bands should be smaller - say 4 hours for challenges 1-4 and 2 hours for 5-8?

It may be controversial but I think the B challenges should be harder. I liked the twist to the Vigenere (although it caught me out!), the newness of Hill and the sheer complexity of the Fialka. I thought 5B was too easy for a 2-week one, especially as it was the same as 4B. Perhaps Caesar and Afine are too easy for B challenges? Maybe it should start with Substitution and get progressively harder (not exponentially harder as this year!), and no cipher is repeated? The A series is there for people new to cipher space to get involved, and the B is there to provide a real challenge. Having 30 teams successfully completing the final challenge is about right I think.

Posted by: Mike at January 18, 2006 03:46 PM

i agree with michael about starting on a different day, i dont know if it is a possibility or not but maybe over the weekend would be a good idea :) anyways thankyou for the challenges they were all brilliant, i loved all the different twists on the traditional ciphers that you used, like the reflected vigenere etc. :) once again thankyou harry :)

Posted by: martyn compton at January 18, 2006 02:15 PM

Hi Harry.
I'm 16. I thought I'd say that to put my opinions into context.
I would also like to say that this has been the most enjoyable of the last three Challenges and the Website is definitely the best so far.
I'm not sure about the forum idea: on the one hand it would make it easier to keep topics focussed rather than having multiple topics on a single page; on the other hand it might be hardrer to understand how it works and younger people (or rather people who are newer to the internet) might find it confusing.
I really enjoyed 7B because it required research but could still be done by hand.
I was one of the many who looked blankly at 8B, knowing what the ciphertext was, and the cipher and everything else, and still wept into my hands.
So possibly just slightly easier next time...
Maybe there could be a tie breaker specifically for the top ten with a cipher of a similar level.

Also maybe we could have it on a different day?
For the last three years I've been at school until 4, at a school club until 5 and then going to a hockey practise 'til 8:30 so even though the early challenges were taking a 5 or ten minutes to solve, I was still losing points. Maybe if we changed the day some people would do better and those who are out on that day would be given the slight handicap I've had, just a thought.

Any way the most important thing I've got to say is:
I've loved it and please don't stop doing the Cipher Challenge
P.S. could Agatha and Captain Omen and Harry work together next time?

Posted by: Michael at January 18, 2006 07:22 AM

i liked the timing intervals, as it enables people to go to after school clubs etc.

i think that 7's points should be more than 6's and 8's more than 7's etc, as else if you are slow on 8 and quick on 6 then you do the same as someone who was quick on 8 and slow on 6

i would like to see more challenges, but i understand that it is hard to organise.

chidders

{Good point about Challenge 6 and 8, I'll think about that a bit. Harry]

Posted by: chidders at January 17, 2006 05:20 PM

This year's challenge has probably been the best yet, especially in terms of the website which looks really good this year and matches the mood of the story. I have a few suggestions and comments about the challenge itself:

One thing I would say is that 8B this year was really hard to do by hand, even with a pringle machine, whereas last year's Solitaire cipher could be done entirely by hand if you waited until you knew all of the deck and had the patience (ha ha, that one again) to spend a couple of hours working it through. This year it may have been a bit discouraging that, as far as I know, the only people who cracked it in the end were the ones with programs - at the very least knowledge of macros in Excel. I would be interested to know if someone did manage to do it completely by hand. I think too few settings for the machine were released at the start too which put a lot of people off and made them give up given the sheer enormity of the task. Although it does mean that the best person really did win because he must have come up with some ingenious solution ages before anyone else! I suppose it would just be nice to see another 8B that is eventually realistically crackable by hand, even if only right at the end.

I also wondered if it might be possible to have a junior section and a senior section, say categories for Y9 and under, and Y10 plus, or something. I think that this way, the increasing number of younger people who do the challenge wouldn't feel totally out of their depth with A level maths stuff like the Hill cipher, and the older ones wouldn't have to compete with kids in primary school who need more help from adults, thus potentially making it us vs adults rather than all school age people.

I thought that the system this year of scoring with time bands in which to submit entries to score points was better than the system in previous years which caused a panicky scramble at 4pm on Thursdays not least to get to a computer with decent internet access, and put those of us who have to catch school buses and those of us without broadband at a disadvantage. So maybe that mad rush that crashed the server on the first challenge this year was a good thing!

I think that's about it from me- except that I'll back up the idea that has been floating round the site and say that a cipher challenge forum would be great if it becomes possible.

Thanks for a great challenge Harry, can't wait until next year...

Posted by: Jess at January 16, 2006 05:52 PM

The way the points were given depending on the time intervals, and the time we had to do the last challenge, meant that 8B almost made the other challenges irrelevant.

[Actually challenges 6,7 and 8 each counted for the same in the final score, so that isn't strictly true. Harry]

Posted by: Epsilon at January 16, 2006 04:33 PM