« CHALLENGE 8B SECOND HINT | Main | The Pringle Enigma plus first rotor wiring (WARNING - EDITED) »
December 12, 2005
The Punchcard
There was a small mistake in my drawing of the punchcard. The correct version is now up at
Hope no one was too inconvenienced.
Posted by Harry at December 12, 2005 08:33 PM
Comments
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wonderful, thaks so much, now i can do sumfin useful
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at December 28, 2005 07:12 PM
thanx, think so umm, are the punchcard holes 0-9 and a-z, or are they not in order?
[They are in that order. Harry]
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at December 28, 2005 01:36 PM
with the new pic of the punchboard, all is clear...
execept how am i supposed to know what letters/numbers match with which dots
also, why is the punchboard 36 x 36 when there are only 36 chars?
surely there should be 36 dots, with some lit and others blank, and the other question...
how do i know which dots match the other dots?
mite have sed the same thing a few times now, if so im sorry but this is kinda important for me to understand the cipher at all i mean, its the first thing that the chars come 2, so if i dont understand the puchcard, i mite as well give up
[A dot in the ith row and jth column means switch the wires numbered i and j. Is that clear? Harry]
Posted by: Insane (FHS) at December 27, 2005 01:28 PM
both of the wireings if that is possible
[They are both in the log now. Harry]
Posted by: freaks at December 20, 2005 08:16 PM
hary can u email me the PDF file on ************ because i havent found it yet and i am really struggleing. will u please give another hint soon please.
regards, freaks
[Which one? Harry]
Posted by: freaks at December 17, 2005 07:45 PM
Inspect from other side doesn't seem to make sense (I've asked someone who knows Russian who translated it as that too) because for each way of orientating the punchcard there is an equivalent way on the other side
[Good isn't it! Harry]
Posted by: Captain Cool at December 16, 2005 01:06 PM
Is the meaning of the punchcard text still a mystery even after solving, then?
Posted by: Jess at December 15, 2005 09:55 PM
I translated it using babelfish and it said, "Inspect from other side". Don't completely know what it was meant to say.
Posted by: Ben at December 15, 2005 02:37 PM
How many solvers *now* Harry? (You should probably set up a counter ;) It would stop people asking!)
[Nice idea, I'll think about that. (Four so far) Harry]
Posted by: Lizzy at December 15, 2005 01:04 PM
Could u explain how it works or how to make one out of a pringles tube?
[I'll publish plans later today. Harry]
Posted by: Nebster at December 15, 2005 12:44 PM
Damn nammit, I thought the Russian text would say something and I was supposed to ask my personal tutor (who knows Russian) - but I forgot and today was the last day of term (yeh!) - anway, it probably says something like 'This way up' or something, but could someone clarify? Thanks
Posted by: Stephen Harris at December 15, 2005 12:43 PM
Hi, I don't know If anyone has said this yet, But it might be worth finding out what the Russian on the Punchcard says. I know a russian so I already know what it says in English.
On the other hand I don't really know what it means!
[Feel free to tell everone. I will let it through. Harry]
Posted by: Michael at December 15, 2005 12:33 PM
Yay - I got the encrypter/decrypter working! Now to try to make the brute-force subroutine...llp.
Kati
Posted by: Katriel Cohn-Gordon at December 15, 2005 11:08 AM
After the challenge has finished is their anyway of finding out how to crack all the ciphers and how peoples programmes worked?
[We'll see what we can do. Harry]
Posted by: sophie at December 15, 2005 08:22 AM
I've been so busy recently had NO time to do anything and with no team mates to help, I'm on my own... :( Getting my cheque presented to me on Friday, though, I think... ;)
[Congrats. Harry]
Posted by: cecil at December 15, 2005 07:32 AM
Laura,
Try a simple polyalphabetic cipher - le *********** or whatever. The keyword is not a full word exactly but more a shortened version of another. Clue: 8 letters long and begins with c.
I should probably get started on 8B - oops!
[Pesky asterisks. Harry]
Posted by: cecil at December 15, 2005 07:28 AM
do the people working in a team have to be at the same school? cos there is no1 in my school who likes codes :S
i thought there might be a chance of working over the internet with somebody else who needs a team mate, on the cipher challenge.
is this possible?
chidders
[We use the school info to verify that teams/individuals qualify under the rules so this could be difficult. Harry]
Posted by: chidders at December 14, 2005 10:18 PM
Heheh, personally I'm getting annoyed with "Subscript out of range" :P
I do have an encrypter-decrypter, but because I've guessed the wiring mazes I'm having to look at the results where it gets 3 out of 5 of the first letters (e.g. WIN31, PIN9S, etc). Getting the wirings will mean that I can just search for a precise match :)
Posted by: Ian at December 14, 2005 10:06 PM
Chidders - don't give up, I feel exactly like you. I spent almost all my spare time this week debugging my program - I could kill the person who came up with "Object Expected".
I haven't even got an encrypter-decrypter yet, let alone trying to brute-force it!
I wish I were in a team with someone - then I could bounce ideas off them and so on.
Anyway, back to coding. G'luck all!
Kati
Posted by: Katriel Cohn-Gordon at December 14, 2005 09:13 PM
Can I ask about the plugboard settings?
One starts with 0, 1... and the other with 35, 34...?
Please confirm. I want to submit it before the next hint.
[I'm not sure what the question is. Harry]
Posted by: 3vil at December 14, 2005 09:11 PM
will it still be hard tomorrow? or will everybody who programs be able to brute force it?
chidders
[We'll see! Harry]
Posted by: chidders at December 14, 2005 09:02 PM
hey, nobody give up. ive developed a new outlook which has cheered me up - im learning new skills trying to crack this, so next year ill be even better! just treat this challenge as a warmup to next years, which will probably be even better and more fun! last year i finished 187th - at the moment im 14th :)
chidders
Posted by: chidders at December 14, 2005 08:58 PM
Ian,
I know how you feel. I've had several programs running - and each finishes with no results :(
Posted by: Mike at December 14, 2005 08:57 PM
8A is just like 7A. Which is a fairly huge clue :P
Posted by: Ian at December 14, 2005 08:32 PM
8A is very similar to 7A, just try out what you did to crack that, of course it is slightly harder.
Posted by: Captain Cool at December 14, 2005 08:21 PM
Lara, to be honest, there really isn't much to say without giving everything away that the only thing to do is read all the hints, make a program and hope it works :P
I didn't actually find websites this important (apart from a basic grounding in Fialka operation, but that was covered in the threads anyway).
Posted by: Ian at December 14, 2005 07:50 PM
Any hints on 8A, Please? *looking hopeful*
Posted by: Sam at December 14, 2005 07:47 PM
i give up :'(
i cant do this stupid cipher!!!
chidders
[Don't give up completely Chidders. It will get easier with more info. Harry]
Posted by: chidders at December 14, 2005 07:27 PM
Is there a kind, caring person out there? at least give me a help with 8a, give me a sporting chance!!!!
Posted by: l;aura at December 14, 2005 07:05 PM
IS it taking people longer to solve this year? I am really stressed working on this all night and having exams all day.
[Sorry about that. We deliberately made it harder so it would take longer. It is a bit depressing setting a challenge with a four week deadline and getting a solution in the first half an hour so we deliberately held back information. Try to get some rest. Harry]
Posted by: 3vil at December 14, 2005 06:35 PM
I had 12 times left to run my program... and on the very last one... it still didn't work :(
So crud cruddy crud, I'll start working for next year :D
[Bad luck. Harry]
Posted by: Ian at December 14, 2005 06:21 PM
but but but but....
Harry, the solution checker tells me that's right?
[It will ignore the numbers (which we delete before marking) so it will mark the first letter wrong after the numbers unless by fluke you get the letter right. Harry]
Posted by: Mike at December 14, 2005 05:31 PM
Harry, how do i get started?
everyone, none of this makes any sense to me and if i look for any of the stuff that people have been talking about on the internet, i just get a load of rubbish i don't understand. would anyone care to enlighten me? or even to recommend a good website or book? please?!
Posted by: lara at December 14, 2005 05:24 PM
sorry harry (about the previous comment). i dont really care about the prizes - its a great challenge, really fun :) i just want to be able to say to my friends: "look, im in the top 3 or 5 in the country". i was just hoping that there was a good chance of that :P
chidders
Posted by: chidders at December 14, 2005 05:20 PM
if some1 cracked it by 12 2night, then would they have a chance of winning, against the 3 who have already cracked it.
chidders
[I (deliberately) haven't checked the scores, but in theory it would be possible depending on who had submitted I guess. I'm really keen not to discuss this. Harry]
Posted by: chidders at December 14, 2005 05:09 PM
i have been totally preoccupied with courseworks. so. any hints for 8a?
Posted by: laura at December 14, 2005 04:41 PM
Harry,
In the document you have said there is a reflector, therefore any character going in, cannot come out as the same one. Yet in the ciphertext there is a 2, corresponding to the 2 in STATION29
How can this work?
What am I missing?
[Maybe the fact that there is no "STATION29" in the plaintext? Harry]
Posted by: Mike at December 14, 2005 04:08 PM
do u no the overall winner yet harry?
[Not yet, but I have a fair idea who might win. I won't be announcing that publicly until the Challenge is over, though I may be in touch with the winner before then. Please bear with me. Harry]
Posted by: Luke at December 14, 2005 03:26 PM
How many solvers Harry?
[Three so far. Harry]
Posted by: Lizzy at December 14, 2005 02:26 PM
ive got a method for pen and paper types, with the current amount of settings. however, ive got to try and make it work for me first!!! i keep slipping up, and forgetting to do certain things.
if i crack it tonight i will probably post my method at some point during the challenge(probably next week or so)
chidders
Posted by: chidders at December 14, 2005 10:52 AM
hey harry wheres this info about the pringle tube idea that you promised, its kinda difficult for us pen and paper types here!!
[It won't help much until you have more settings (how much could a pringle tube help?). I was planning on saying something Thursday. Harry]
Posted by: martyn compton at December 14, 2005 09:38 AM
Hi, sorry i only just looked at the winners thing ( i was ill) whats the email address u want us to send to? i didnt get an email?
[You can mail us at cipher@soton.ac.uk. Harry]
Posted by: Francesca at December 13, 2005 09:43 PM
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Well Done to person(s) who've finished. I need to revise as I have exams tomorrow but must finish cipher first. *moan*
Posted by: Ben at December 13, 2005 09:08 PM
Did someone really crack it Harry? I don't know where to begin at all... gosh, I feel hopeless now!
Posted by: Jess at December 13, 2005 09:07 PM
I only did 8B last year because my dad helped significantly with programming. This year I've got to most fo ti myself and I have no idea how to go about it. Oh well, I can always wait until all the settings are released and do it using pringle tubes (that was what you said wasn't it, something about a pringle tube Fialka?).
[Well done for getting this far. Harry]
Posted by: Ruth at December 13, 2005 08:42 PM
bother you harry! i guess that means some1 has cracked it :S
chidders
Posted by: chidders at December 13, 2005 08:18 PM
how many solvers harry?
chidders
[Wait and see! Harry]
Posted by: chidders at December 13, 2005 08:10 PM
Whew - finally finished the rotor subroutines. Now to figure out the brute-forcing bit...
Kati
Posted by: Katriel Cohn-Gordon at December 13, 2005 07:49 PM
P.S.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAARGHHH!!! TOO HARD!!!!!!!!!!
I'll get it next year...
Posted by: Ian at December 13, 2005 07:48 PM
Heh heh, my program just spat out:
W7NDSMYMYHARXY
Which looks suspiciously like
Winds? My, my, Harry...
Which I suppose is incorrect, but highly amusing nonetheless :P
Posted by: Ian at December 13, 2005 07:39 PM
It's a pity it's going to be released on thursday, I have a conert i'm playing in on thursday, fri, sat, sun, mon - so i'm a bit stuck there
Harry, how about releasing the exact wiring in stages - rotor 1 on thurs, 2 on fri, reflector on sat?
Posted by: Mike at December 13, 2005 07:23 PM
Anybody _YET_??? I haven't slept properly since Thursday. Need to finish
Posted by: In Extreme Pain at December 13, 2005 06:37 PM
"If this was done blindly there would be 36 choices for each character and over a 1,000 characters which means it could take 36^1,000 attempts. This number is inconceivably big. Let's just say it would take a long time. Harry" Actually, all numbers are ignored by the automatic response, so there are 26 possibilities for each word
[True, but even 26^1000 is outrageously large. Harry]
Posted by: Captain Cool at December 13, 2005 04:49 PM
(It wouldn't be done blindly though would it Harry?)
I can't believe my design is still not complete. Just a few technical details about data storage, but still important. With a near absence of urgent homework I think I will spend the rest of the day from now just programming, and I haven't done much yet. I wonder if its possible to program the whole thing in one night... And if so, how successful will the program be? Only one way to answer that question. I don't want chidders to finish before me do I? Go!!!
Posted by: Jason at December 13, 2005 04:38 PM
lol luke - i had thought of that. but is it against the rules, or just impractical?
chidders
[We would tolerate a certain amount of fishing but would ask sersious offenders to modify their behaviour. In extreme cases we would issue the equivalent of an ASBO! Harry]
Posted by: chidders at December 13, 2005 04:05 PM
Are you going to release some or all of the actual rotor wiring as a clue? This just because I actually have a chance of getting somewhere if I know what the rotor wiring is (brute-forcing the rotor wiring + the rotor positions is a bit much I think).
Thanks, Kati
[Yes I will. At the moment I am waiting to see if we get a clear winner without releasing the explicit wiring connections, but either way I will publish the table of wiring connections at around 3pm on Thursday 15th. Harry]
Posted by: Katriel Cohn-Gordon at December 13, 2005 02:56 PM
would a brute force entering of solutions work? Keep trying one letter at a time and correcting everytime u are told it is an incorrect solution. Or is it quicker to solve using pen and paper.
[If this was done blindly there would be 36 choices for each character and over a 1,000 characters which means it could take 36^1,000 attempts. This number is inconceivably big. Let's just say it would take a long time. Harry]
Posted by: Luke at December 13, 2005 01:12 PM
Harry, do we assume that the order of the characters (ie 0...Z) is the same for both the row (left to right) and the column (up to down). Or could the punchard be designed such that the row goes from 0...Z and the column starts at Z an goes to 0. Because that would leave us with 4 possibilites
[It looked to me like the order was the same. Harry]
Posted by: stephen at December 13, 2005 12:24 PM
About the cache thing, if you don't know. In Internet Explorer and Firefox (and probably others) you can use Ctrl+F5 or Shift+Click Refresh/Reload Button to override the cache when getting a page. You will notice how much slower the page loads.
Posted by: Jason (I bet you're confused now) at December 12, 2005 10:51 PM
Which punch card is wrong - the original? or the 1st gridded version? overlaying the last one posted (the corrected version)is identical to the 2nd one. Did you post the wrong one a second time without realising it?
[Make sure you are not getting a cached version. The right one has a mirror symmetry along a diagonal. If yours doesn't then your machine is showing an old version. I only changed two dots so it isn't easy to see. Harry]
Posted by: Jason at December 12, 2005 09:28 PM
Any correct solutions yet Harry? (I'm waiting until I have more information before I even start!)
[I wouldn't wait any longer if I were you. We haven't had any correct solutions yet, but several people have cracked small portions of the text already. Harry]
Posted by: Jess at December 12, 2005 09:25 PM
how many people have cracked it yet harry? i reckon ill finish by tomorrow evening - almost finished :)
my method seems to be working but ive got too much to do in one night, so im going to bed early tonight to make up for saturday, where i was working all through the night.
how about you tell us when someone cracks it harry?
chidders
Posted by: chidders at December 12, 2005 09:24 PM
Well now it's completely symmetrical instead of almost symmetrical. That's one optimization of my program design made pointless for this challenge. No point in changing it now though...
[Tell us all about it after the Challenge is over. Harry]
Posted by: Jason at December 12, 2005 09:08 PM
hey, nobody can blame harry. after all, if he hadnt risked his life in that boat then we wouldnt have any settings at all :P
chidders
Posted by: chidders at December 12, 2005 09:05 PM
was it just the ones in column 1 and 2? thnx chidders
[They are the ones I changed. Harry]
Posted by: chidders at December 12, 2005 09:02 PM
Ignore my last comment.
I was beeing a fool. The correction is not a transposition of the original. Sorry.
[It very nearly was, that's why I didn't spot it! Harry]
Posted by: tom at December 12, 2005 08:57 PM
Annoying but I'll live. * Resets program *
Posted by: Ben at December 12, 2005 08:56 PM
I don't really see how that was a mistake, because if you transposed the original card you drew, then you got what is now the corrected version.
And seeing you said you didn't know how it was inserted transposing was one of the ways you had to try.
Posted by: tom at December 12, 2005 08:55 PM
too inconvienienced? nah, couldnt crack it anyway, whether the punchcard settings are right or not :P
chidders
Posted by: chidders at December 12, 2005 08:52 PM